‘BOB SPORTS’与FT共进午餐之爱德华斯诺登(下)

本文摘要：He confirms he received no money from the movie, adding of his tangential experience of Hollywood: When I was told that there was going to be a film made about me, it was a scary thing, one of the most terrifying things I can imagine. 他证实自己没有从这部电影获得一分钱，倒是对好莱坞多不懂了一点皮毛。

He confirms he received no money from the movie, adding of his tangential experience of Hollywood: When I was told that there was going to be a film made about me, it was a scary thing, one of the most terrifying things I can imagine. 他证实自己没有从这部电影获得一分钱，倒是对好莱坞多不懂了一点皮毛。当我被告诉有人要拍电影一部关于我的电影时，感觉很可怕，这是我能想起的最可怕的事情之一。

But, looking back, I hope it helps, I’m cautiously optimistic that it will.但回过头来看，我期望它能有所协助，我慎重悲观地指出它不会有起到的。He looks back over the period since the revelations and reflects that all three branches of government in the US — Congress, courts, president — have changed their position on mass surveillance. 他总结了爆料以来这段时期的情况，指出美国政府的三大支柱——国会、法院和总统——早已转变了对大规模监听的立场。We can actually start to impose more oversight on spies, rather than giving them a free pass to do whatever simply because we’re scared, which is understandable but clearly not ethical.知道，我们可以开始对间谍实行更加多监督了，而无法意味着因为我们惧怕，就给他们一张可以为所欲为的免费通行证，这可以解读，但似乎不道德。

What of subsequent developments in the UK, where the government’s response has been to propose laws that not only sanction, post hoc, the intelligence activities that were revealed to be happening, but extend them? He says it was not his intention to tell the world how to structure their laws, but to give people a voice in the process. 英国后来的情况怎么样？英国政府的对此是建议法律，不仅批准后那些被透露正在展开的情报活动，还要扩大范围。The laws have gotten worse in some countries. 他回应，自己的原意不是要告诉他世界如何制订法律，而是让人民有机会在这个过程中倾听。

France has gone very far, so too, of course, countries like Russia, China. 在有些国家，法律早已显得更糟。法国早已回头得很近，俄罗斯、中国等国当然也是这样。In Britain there’s an authoritarian trend.英国经常出现了一种威权主义趋势。We don’t allow police to enter and search any home. 我们不容许警员入室搜查。

We don’t typically reorder the operation of a free society for the convenience of the police — because that is the definition of a police state, he says, mopping up the last of the rice. 一般来说，我们会为了便利警员行事而重新安排一个权利社会的运转秩序——因为那乃是警员国家的定义，他说道着大口吃完最后一点米饭。And yet some spies and officials are trying to persuade us that we should. 但一些间谍和官员正试图劝说我们应当这样做到。Now, I would argue there’s no real question that police in a police state would be more effective than those in a free and liberal society where the police operate under tighter constraints. 我得说道，警员国家的警员毫无疑问不会比一个权利、对外开放社会的警员更加高效，因为在权利社会，警员的行动受到更加严苛的约束。But which one would you rather live in?但你更加不愿生活在哪一种社会呢？He has finished his curry and pronounces it quite good. 他吃完了咖喱饭，说道十分爱吃。

The crab cakes are abandoned after a bite. Less good, he says.蟹饼只咬了一口就被放在一旁，不过于爱吃，他说道。We order ice cream — vanilla, strawberry and chocolate for him, sorbet for me. 我们点了冰淇淋，他要了香草、草莓和巧克力口味的，我中选了冰沙。The voice on the phone launches into a complicated explanation of why, with five scoops in all, we can have a discount.电话那头的人详尽地说明了为什么我们可以享用优惠——总共给了我们五把勺子。Does he never lose sleep at night wondering whether Isis terrorists might not have gained some useful advantage from the information he disclosed?他在夜里从不嗜睡吗？他怎么会会木村伊斯兰国(ISIS)恐怖分子否从他透露的信息中取得了一些可以利用的优势？Well, firstly, he says, in all the recent European attacks the suspects were known to the authorities, who thus had the ability to target them without having to scoop up everyone else’s data as well. 噢，首先，他说道，在欧洲最近再次发生的所有攻击事件中，当局告诉这些嫌疑人，他们有能力把他们列入目标，而不用收集所有其他人的数据。

Secondly, he points out, Osama bin Laden stopped using a mobile phone in 1998 — not because of leaks to newspapers but because there is an aggressive form of Darwinism in terrorist circles. 其次，他认为，奥萨马本拉登(Osama bin Laden)从1998年就不用于移动电话了——不是因为谁对报纸泄的密，而是因为恐怖分子的圈子里有一种生猛的达尔文主义。Long before we, the public, know about any of these surveillance measures, they have already known for years because, if they had not, they are already dead.早于在我们——公众——知悉任何这类监听措施之前，他们早已告诉好多年了，因为如果他们不告诉的话，他们早已杀了。

But, he goes on, let’s say that the newspapers had decided this should not be public. 但是，他接着说道，假设那些报纸要求这些资料不该被公开发表。Let’s say the intelligence services had been able to continue using these programs in secret. 假设情报机构需要之后秘密展开这些监听项目。

Would it have stopped any of the terrorist attacks that have occurred in the last three years? There’s no public evidence that that’s the case. 那样能制止过去三年再次发生的任何一起恐怖袭击吗？没公开发表证据能证明这一点。In fact, there’s no classified evidence that that’s the case, or else we’d be reading it in the newspapers.实质上，也没秘密证据能证明，否则我们就不会在报纸上看见。We move on to talking about stories alleging Russian hacking of the NSA itself and of the Democratic party’s governing body, the Democratic National Committee. 我们接着谈论美国国家安全局本身以及美国民主党的管理机构——民主党全国委员会(Democratic National Committee)遭俄罗斯黑客侵略的传闻。

The former involved a group calling itself the Shadow Brokers, who threatened to auction very sophisticated alleged NSA surveillance tools. 前者牵涉到一个自称为影子经纪人的的组织，威胁要拍卖会十分先进设备的据传是美国国家安全局所用于的监控工具。The latter was a collection of DNC emails published — to general embarrassment — by WikiLeaks in July.后者牵涉到维基解密(WikiLeaks)7月发布的民主党全国委员会的一批邮件——让民主党上下都脸上无光。The Shadow Broker leak, says Snowden, doesn’t strike me as a whistleblower: that strikes me as a warning. 斯诺登说道，影子经纪人泄露事件未让我实在他们是泄密者，我实在这是一次警告，是通过信息泄漏的方式表达政治信息。It’s political messaging being carried out through information disclosure. 至于民主党全国委员会遭到反击事件，正如他所言，人们普遍认为这是俄罗斯黑客所为。

And the DNC hack, where, as he observes, the conventional wisdom is that it was the Russians? This is part of the problem of this surveillance free-for-all that we’re allowing to occur by refusing to moderate our own behaviour. 这是这种不特容许的监控不道德带给的一部分问题，正是我们拒绝接受抗拒自己的不道德才使得这种状况以求再次发生。We’ve set a kind of global precedent that anything is possible and nothing is prohibited.我们竖立了一种全球先例——一切均有可能，没什么是被禁令的。Now, the fact the DNC got hacked is not surprising and interesting. 民主党全国委员会被入侵的事实并不令人实在吃惊和有意思。We’re hacking political parties around the world, so is every country. 我们不会入侵世界各国的政党，每个国家都在这样做到。

What makes it interesting is that some of the things taken from this server were published afterwards. 这件事有意思的地方是，从该服务器盗取的一些信息后来被公之于众。That’s quite novel. 这一点十分新鲜。

I think.我实在。Which makes him think what? That it’s for political effect.什么让他这么想要？这是为了起着政治效果。He says — as someone who used to try and do this sort of thing to the Chinese — that it would be easy to attribute the hack to whoever had done it. 他说道，很更容易将这次反击算到做到过这种事的人头上——就像某些人过去经常企图这么对待中国人。

But this creates a problem because, let’s say, the NSA has the smoking gun that says the Russians hacked the DNC, and they tell us the Russians hacked the DNC, how can we be sure? It presumes a level of trust that no longer exists.然而，这不会带给一个问题，因为，假设说道，美国国家安全局掌控了俄罗斯人入侵民主党全国委员会的确凿证据，并且他们告诉他我们俄国人入侵了民主党全国委员会，我们又如何相信呢？这么做到假设了一种不复存在的信任度。The ice creams arrive along with an espresso, replacing the first set of dishes on the bed. 冰淇淋和意式稀释咖啡一同到了，换成了床上的第一套餐具。

Snowden spills a bit of chicken curry on the duvet and apologetically mops it up with a towel.斯诺登差点把一点鸡肉咖喱汁淋到了羽绒被上，他带着歉意用纸巾拭去。Aren’t we beginning to discover that no digital databases are secure? We are living through a crisis in computer security the likes of which we’ve never seen, he says. 我们不是于是以开始找到没哪个数字化的数据库是安全性的？他说道：我们正在经历一场计算机安全危机，类似于危机我们从未见过。But until we solve the fundamental problem, which is that our policy incentivises offence to a greater degree than defence, hacks will continue unpredictably and they will have increasingly larger effects and impacts.然而，我们的政策对反击的希望少于对防卫的希望，在我们解决问题这个显然问题以前，黑客攻击还不会以不能预测的方式之后经常出现，其后果和影响也不会更加大。

The answer, he thinks, is that there ought to be some form of liability for negligence in software architecture, such as would apply in the food industry. 他指出，要解决问题这个问题，应当规定在软件架构的设计中不存在疏失不道德需得分担某种责任，就如食品行业的作法一样。He adds, drily: People from my tribe will be extraordinarily mad at me for suggesting regulation in the terms of negligence for software security.他淡淡地接着说：我建议针对软件安全性的过错方面制订规章，圈子里的人听见不会气得胡言乱语。He has finished his ice cream and declines coffee. 他吃完了冰淇淋，婉拒了咖啡。

Life in Moscow is getting better, he says: I’m more open now than I’ve been since 2013. 他说道，在莫斯科的生活更加好了，相比2013年事情再次发生后的一段时期，我现在更加对外开放了。He sees few people — such meetings as this are rare — and divides his time between public speaking (which pays the bills) and devising tools to protect the digital security of journalists. 他闻的人很少，类似于这次的会谈十分少见。他的时间主要用在公开发表演说（由此带给的收益用作缴纳各种账单）和设计可供记者用于的维护数字信息安全的工具。

He would rather not go into the family stuff or how often he sees Lindsay Mills, his partner, who was left behind in Hawaii when he quit his job for the NSA there and disappeared to Hong Kong.他不愿谈到家事，也不愿透漏多久闻一次林赛米尔斯(Lindsay Mills)。后者是他的女朋友，在他从美国国家安全局辞职跑到香港以后被回到了夏威夷。His American lawyer, Ben Wizner at the American Civil Liberties Union, is reported to be preparing to launch a petition to President Barack Obama to grant Snowden a pardon before he steps down. 据报导，他的美国律师、美国公民自由联盟(American Civil Liberties Union)的本维茨纳(Ben Wizner)于是以打算向美国总统巴拉克奥巴马(Barack Obama)抗议，期望奥巴马在离任前特赦斯诺登。Snowden will only say: Of course I hope they’re successful but this has never really been about what happens to me. 回应斯诺登只回应：我当然期望他们顺利，不过这几乎与我个人境遇牵涉到。

No matter how the outcome shakes out, it’s something I can live with.不论结果如何，我都可以拒绝接受。His chances of a happy ending under President Donald Trump would be zero, I observe. 我看，若是唐纳德特朗普(Donald Trump)当了总统，他这事以求活命的可能性必定为零。

What about under President Hillary Clinton? You’re trying to drag me into a political quagmire, he protests. 但如果是希拉里克林顿(Hillary Clinton)总统呢？他抗议道：你在把我拉入一个政治难题。He collects himself, looking intensely at the ground, before sidestepping the question: I think we should have better choices. 他抱住地盯着地面，凝神想要了一会儿，还是没正面问这个问题，而是说：我指出，我们应当有更佳的自由选择。We’re a country of 330m people and we seem to be being asked to make a choice between individuals whose lives are defined by scandal. 我们是个享有3.3亿人的国家，而我们却或许被拒绝在各个丑闻身患的人之间作出自由选择。

I simply think we should be capable of more.我就是指出，我们应当能有更加多自由选择。If he’s tough on the options in US politics, his willingness to tweet criticism of Russian politics to his 2.3m followers has not gone unnoticed. 如果说他在谈及美国政治的自由选择空间时措辞严苛，那么人们没忽略的是，他很不愿在Twitter网站上，向他的230万粉丝公开发表对俄罗斯政治的抨击。

A lot of people who care about me tell me to shut up, but if I was married to my own self-interest, I never would have left Hawaii.许多关心我的人让我大声，然而如果我只在乎个人利益，我就会离开了夏威夷了。I can’t fix the human rights situation in Russia, and realistically my priority is to fix my own country first, because that’s the one to which I owe the greatest loyalty. 我无法提高俄罗斯的人权状况，而且说道觉得的，我首要关心的是再行提高我自己的国家，因为它才是我抱有仅次于忠心的国度。But though the chances are it will make no difference, maybe it’ll help.尽管很有可能转变没法什么，但或许不会起起到呢。

He gathers up his dark glasses: it’s time for him to melt into the Moscow crowds. 他拿起墨镜——隐入莫斯科人群中的时间到了。A final question: the Stone film shows him spiriting his trove of secrets out of the NSA on a micro-SD card hidden in a Rubik’s Cube. True or false?我托了最后一个问题：在斯通的电影中，他通过藏在一块魔方里的内存卡，把大量机密道出了美国国家安全局，这是不是知道？Oliver confirmed in an interview recently that that’s a touch of the dramatic licence, but that’s only because I wouldn’t confirm or deny how it really happened. 奥利弗在最近一次专访中证实这是戏剧手法，但他这么说道只是因为我不愿证实真实情况是怎样的，也不愿坚称。

I will say that I gave Rubik’s Cubes to everyone in my office, it’s true. 我只不会说道我给办公室里的每个人都送来了魔方，这一点是知道。I really did that. 我显然这么做到了。And with that he is gone.他听完这句话就回头了。

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